I thought that this chapter was an extended introduction. He was setting the stage for the rest of the book. (it was very hard for me to stop reading at the end of the chapter.)
I thought that he raises some very interesting questions. I think in the christian ommunity being "saved" is a concept that we all toss around and talk about like we all know what it means. However, when it comes down to it and you begin to get to the nitty gritty it seems less clear. Would some one who said the "sinners prayer" and then went on with their life and never thought about it again go to heaven. Would someone who was raised a hindu who lived an amazing life, like Ghandi, go to hell?
Man oh man, Rob. You are just kickin’ it in high gear for this one. And I love the set up, the first chapter.
I feel like life has been setting me up for this book. I’ve been meeting a lot of interesting, free-spirit, Cali types, many atheists or self-proclaimed hedonists (ha). When they find out I’m a Christian, they’re so blown away. One lady-friend I just met grew up really conservatively, like, more than most people I know, myself included. And when I listen to her talk about the things her parents would say, I just want to yell. Because this is what Christianity means to her now and it was so poorly represented, just awful guilt-driven, produced-from-fear theology. And while I can’t at all comment on the parents because I have no idea about their beliefs or the nature of their hearts, I can see how it has affected her. She literally couldn’t get over the fact that I was a Christian and exclaimed, “How can you believe in a God who’s sending people to hell just because they don’t believe? Really? Hell?!”
And so, I can see how the terms and languages used for so long by varying religious groups (or just varying individuals) is just not cutting it today. I sorta see Rob Bell as someone who is picking up the torch of language and trying to facilitate a dialog that is so needed right now.
The first chapter seemed very philosophically written. He raises a lot of questions and seems to have an ethics-based approach to these questions. (I say this because it reminded me of those phil. discussions I’d have with my ex, Sara…blah ☺ ) And I appreciate his ability to use these types of approaches. Because that means people who are well-versed in this sort of Socratic method may find this book more tangible. Anywhoo… I really don’t like philosophy despite I trying to not so long ago… but I dig that it shows up here.
Also … the Renee Altson quote on page 7? Wow. Just so gut-wrenchingly vivid. And I want to echo, That Jesus?? That entire section. That Jesus?
One more thing I wanted to touch on (even though it’s all worth mentioning) is the last couple of pages in Chapter 1 when Rob juxtaposes the confusion of people as to who God is and the certainty of the demons. Anyone have any thoughts on this? That’s something that I’ll be mulling for a bit here. Demons believe. Hmm.
I have often thought that. What do you say when people who have had legitimately horrible experiences with Jesus, respond that way. I can't fault someone for wanting no part of a Jesus that endorses murder, rape, indifference, and a general lack of compassion. It takes a really significant experience and a lot time i imagine to change that perception of Jesus.
That also puts a lot of pressure on us as Christians. I think that there are people within the faith are seriously worried that if they don't do something people they know are going to hell. It leads them to push Christianity on peoplebecause they are genuinely worried that they are not doing enough.
At the end of the day I don't think that it anything that we do that introduces people to jesus. He does all the work and we are simply the vessal. If we try and force things then it gets awkward and can breed more distrust and suspicion.
I love that insight, Rhys. I like what you said specifically in the 2nd paragraph - Christians get pushy because they are genuinely worried that they are not doing enough. It's like maybe they think they can say the most crass or ill-timed things and then God will somehow make it sound beautiful and appropriate to the listener.
I've often downplayed the fact that I'm a Christian because I don't want to be associated with what Christianity has become. Because "that Jesus" is not my Jesus. But I realized, that the more us "cool" ones hide, the worse of a rap God and Christ get. If ever there was a time to step up and own your faith, now seems to be it. Gotta change the way the world views Christianity starting with me.
I think that too. I often feel that I overcompensate and instead of being pushy I am invisable. I think it really has less to do with my fear of how someone else is feeling and really with my fear that they willl think badly of me. What's awful is I don't even think that I even think about what they will think about Jesus. We have been reading another book at Church called the Good and Beautiful life. It has brought to my attention how much narratives that I live by are dominated by fear.
We should not be afraid Chrissy. If we know that the Jesus we love and place our trust in is the good and loving son of god that will change the world then we should not hide that.
Ps. I don't know about wellman. She said that it has been a busy week.
I thought that this chapter was an extended introduction. He was setting the stage for the rest of the book. (it was very hard for me to stop reading at the end of the chapter.)
ReplyDeleteI thought that he raises some very interesting questions. I think in the christian ommunity being "saved" is a concept that we all toss around and talk about like we all know what it means. However, when it comes down to it and you begin to get to the nitty gritty it seems less clear. Would some one who said the "sinners prayer" and then went on with their life and never thought about it again go to heaven. Would someone who was raised a hindu who lived an amazing life, like Ghandi, go to hell?
That seems very legalistic.
Man oh man, Rob. You are just kickin’ it in high gear for this one. And I love the set up, the first chapter.
ReplyDeleteI feel like life has been setting me up for this book. I’ve been meeting a lot of interesting, free-spirit, Cali types, many atheists or self-proclaimed hedonists (ha). When they find out I’m a Christian, they’re so blown away. One lady-friend I just met grew up really conservatively, like, more than most people I know, myself included. And when I listen to her talk about the things her parents would say, I just want to yell. Because this is what Christianity means to her now and it was so poorly represented, just awful guilt-driven, produced-from-fear theology. And while I can’t at all comment on the parents because I have no idea about their beliefs or the nature of their hearts, I can see how it has affected her. She literally couldn’t get over the fact that I was a Christian and exclaimed, “How can you believe in a God who’s sending people to hell just because they don’t believe? Really? Hell?!”
And so, I can see how the terms and languages used for so long by varying religious groups (or just varying individuals) is just not cutting it today. I sorta see Rob Bell as someone who is picking up the torch of language and trying to facilitate a dialog that is so needed right now.
The first chapter seemed very philosophically written. He raises a lot of questions and seems to have an ethics-based approach to these questions. (I say this because it reminded me of those phil. discussions I’d have with my ex, Sara…blah ☺ ) And I appreciate his ability to use these types of approaches. Because that means people who are well-versed in this sort of Socratic method may find this book more tangible. Anywhoo… I really don’t like philosophy despite I trying to not so long ago… but I dig that it shows up here.
Also … the Renee Altson quote on page 7? Wow. Just so gut-wrenchingly vivid. And I want to echo, That Jesus?? That entire section. That Jesus?
One more thing I wanted to touch on (even though it’s all worth mentioning) is the last couple of pages in Chapter 1 when Rob juxtaposes the confusion of people as to who God is and the certainty of the demons. Anyone have any thoughts on this? That’s something that I’ll be mulling for a bit here. Demons believe. Hmm.
I have often thought that. What do you say when people who have had legitimately horrible experiences with Jesus, respond that way. I can't fault someone for wanting no part of a Jesus that endorses murder, rape, indifference, and a general lack of compassion. It takes a really significant experience and a lot time i imagine to change that perception of Jesus.
ReplyDeleteThat also puts a lot of pressure on us as Christians. I think that there are people within the faith are seriously worried that if they don't do something people they know are going to hell. It leads them to push Christianity on peoplebecause they are genuinely worried that they are not doing enough.
At the end of the day I don't think that it anything that we do that introduces people to jesus. He does all the work and we are simply the vessal. If we try and force things then it gets awkward and can breed more distrust and suspicion.
This is rambly sorry.
I love that insight, Rhys. I like what you said specifically in the 2nd paragraph - Christians get pushy because they are genuinely worried that they are not doing enough. It's like maybe they think they can say the most crass or ill-timed things and then God will somehow make it sound beautiful and appropriate to the listener.
ReplyDeleteI've often downplayed the fact that I'm a Christian because I don't want to be associated with what Christianity has become. Because "that Jesus" is not my Jesus. But I realized, that the more us "cool" ones hide, the worse of a rap God and Christ get. If ever there was a time to step up and own your faith, now seems to be it. Gotta change the way the world views Christianity starting with me.
PS - Where's Ms. Wellman on this thang?!
I think that too. I often feel that I overcompensate and instead of being pushy I am invisable. I think it really has less to do with my fear of how someone else is feeling and really with my fear that they willl think badly of me. What's awful is I don't even think that I even think about what they will think about Jesus. We have been reading another book at Church called the Good and Beautiful life. It has brought to my attention how much narratives that I live by are dominated by fear.
ReplyDeleteWe should not be afraid Chrissy. If we know that the Jesus we love and place our trust in is the good and loving son of god that will change the world then we should not hide that.
Ps. I don't know about wellman. She said that it has been a busy week.